Here’s the scenario as best as can be discerned from various threads on the AEG, Crane and Mantis forums:
1. Prior to the tournament, a Crane bounty is placed by David Winner, that monies will be paid if an untainted Crane is named the Emerald Champion. This obviously requires that a Crane win the tournament. The bounty is in the amount of $500.
2. David Winner ends up in the final four and is the only Crane player therein. He faces Will Brewer representing the Mantis clan.
3. At some time just prior to the beginning of their match, David offers half of the aforesaid bounty to Will if Will concedes.
4. Will either declines or is indecisive about the offer (it is unclear as Will’s tournament report has been edited once the situation blew up) and they proceed to game one.
5. Will wins game one. He loses game two (badly, by his account).
6. It is determined that John Seals will face the winner between David and Will.
7. Will concedes game three.
8. David loses in the finals.
Here is where things get murky: David offers to Will half of a bounty that he placed originally and happens to be the only person capable of claiming. This split is offered before anyone is in a direct position to actually claim the bounty, though Will’s prior knowledge of the bounty can be assumed to exist (though why he would need reminding of it JUST before they began play is curious). Will stated in his tournament report (which statement has since been removed from the Mantis forums) that “I fell on my sword in game 3 as I was offered a decent deal, was exhausted, had achieved more than I'd set out to do just by hitting Top 4, and knew Seals would be my opponent in finals and did not like my chances.” The ‘offered a decent deal’ part shows that the stipulation from David was a factor (one of four) in Will conceding game three.
These have been the general defenses offered:
1. No money ever (or yet) changed hands.
2. Will conceded and only after that fact went back to David about the fulfillment of the offer.
3. Will had every reason to be amicable to David because David had helped Will out previously. (Will posted on the Crane forums that he didn’t realize that David was Yoshi at the time).
4. There was no maliciousness present in the concession.
What do you guys think?
Editorial Note: I personally think that the slander has been put back into the Crane clan for the offer being made during the tournament itself. Mr. Winner, having just won Tanukifest, is clearly a capable player. For me, however, that he is the source of the bounty, is the only one capable of receiving the bounty as result of his stellar play, and offers a part of that bounty for a concession just prior to the start of his top four match (regardless of whether the money was ever paid out or not) deserves for Doji Yoshi’s card to be flipped upside down in dishonorable fashion.
1. Prior to the tournament, a Crane bounty is placed by David Winner, that monies will be paid if an untainted Crane is named the Emerald Champion. This obviously requires that a Crane win the tournament. The bounty is in the amount of $500.
2. David Winner ends up in the final four and is the only Crane player therein. He faces Will Brewer representing the Mantis clan.
3. At some time just prior to the beginning of their match, David offers half of the aforesaid bounty to Will if Will concedes.
4. Will either declines or is indecisive about the offer (it is unclear as Will’s tournament report has been edited once the situation blew up) and they proceed to game one.
5. Will wins game one. He loses game two (badly, by his account).
6. It is determined that John Seals will face the winner between David and Will.
7. Will concedes game three.
8. David loses in the finals.
Here is where things get murky: David offers to Will half of a bounty that he placed originally and happens to be the only person capable of claiming. This split is offered before anyone is in a direct position to actually claim the bounty, though Will’s prior knowledge of the bounty can be assumed to exist (though why he would need reminding of it JUST before they began play is curious). Will stated in his tournament report (which statement has since been removed from the Mantis forums) that “I fell on my sword in game 3 as I was offered a decent deal, was exhausted, had achieved more than I'd set out to do just by hitting Top 4, and knew Seals would be my opponent in finals and did not like my chances.” The ‘offered a decent deal’ part shows that the stipulation from David was a factor (one of four) in Will conceding game three.
These have been the general defenses offered:
1. No money ever (or yet) changed hands.
2. Will conceded and only after that fact went back to David about the fulfillment of the offer.
3. Will had every reason to be amicable to David because David had helped Will out previously. (Will posted on the Crane forums that he didn’t realize that David was Yoshi at the time).
4. There was no maliciousness present in the concession.
What do you guys think?
Editorial Note: I personally think that the slander has been put back into the Crane clan for the offer being made during the tournament itself. Mr. Winner, having just won Tanukifest, is clearly a capable player. For me, however, that he is the source of the bounty, is the only one capable of receiving the bounty as result of his stellar play, and offers a part of that bounty for a concession just prior to the start of his top four match (regardless of whether the money was ever paid out or not) deserves for Doji Yoshi’s card to be flipped upside down in dishonorable fashion.



I have no strong opinion on the matter even having been there to witness the match in person. I was saddened to see the Mantis bid for an Emerald Champion end so suddenly. I had watched both previous games and was very much entertained with games one and two. To see it end in game three as a concession was disappointing on a personal level because I did want to see another fairly evenly matched struggle. I do wish that there was a rule in place to prevent those still in a cut bracket to know who has advanced in other brackets, particularly when that information directly informs the player who their next opponent will be. Knowledge like that makes it easy for two players to decide the outcome of a match based on who will have the better chance of winning the next round rather than who has the better overall deck in any particular field. Again, this is a generalization and has nothing to do with these two players specifically who showed nothing but skill and class when I met them face to face at this event.
ReplyDeleteIt's Bribery. And this is part of the problem. There are very few rules that govern players' behavior, because in general players act appropriately. However, when they break the rules, particularly experienced players, at worst they'll get a slap on the wrist. TOs need to be more aggressive. I hate hearing about cheaters breaking rules and getting away with it. This isn't the first time I've said something about an experienced player cheating. I'm starting to think AEG is okay with cheating, and maybe the IRS, INS, FBI, and the rest of the Fed Alphabet Soup should investigate them. If they won't enforce rules, maybe they've got something to hide.
ReplyDeleteBefore I respond to that, and I'd like to, please let me know how much of that is meant to be taken seriously
ReplyDeleteJust the first half. I got to ranting in the second.
ReplyDeleteBribery. I do not know Mr. Winner personally, I only know him from his posts as Yoshi on the AEG forums. I have always found his offers and requests to be somewhat...underhanded. But that could be because he frequently has worked against the Spider so I'm likely biased.
ReplyDeleteOn a broader note, I am against bounties in L5R to begin with. I think the only time I would accept a bounty offer would be with the stipulation that the money be given to a charitable organization of my choice. While L5R is a fantastic game, its still a game. Offering hundreds or even thousands of dollars to sway the outcome of a game that involves pieces of cardboard has always seemed a waste to me.
Before I start, it is interesting to take a peek at what Will (the mantis player) posted in his report originally, before he removed the whole thing. Here is that link:
ReplyDeletehttp://dash-dash-dash-dash.com/ryzoukensanitized.png
Even if you consider this to be bribery, extending that definition to include cheating is a big stretch. To be fair, I don't think that this is the first time that money deals have been made in this game, the only difference being that this was A) highly public having happened at a tournament hosted by the lead designer and B) a situation where both deal-makers ended up with egg on their face because the bounty was not claimed anyway. While I personally don't have problems with what happened, I defer to those whose jobs it is to protect the game on what should be done about it. Daniel, Bryan, and Nicholas are working on it over their break, and I think it will all be fine.
Now, regarding bounties. These are good for the game as they keep more people interested: the bounty giver who possibly does not play the CCG or is not confident in his/her ability to win can still affect the story and the bounty receiver gets some extra incentive to go to tournaments and play well.
Remy, you say bounties are a waste of money...but have you not spent hundreds if not thousands on this game in the first place? How is that any more of a contribution to society than a bounty payout? You say that this is just a game (and it most assuredly is) but this is a few sentences after you admit that an opinion might be biased based on the fact that a dude you don't know has beaten members of your clan in samurai high school in the past. As someone who cares about the game, I feel like you shouldn't be so harsh on those whose love of the game motivates them to shell out real money to affect the story in ways they desire.
@Evan: Hundreds yes, but not thousands. I'm a player, who while loves the game, has very limited funds to throw into it and who benefits from having an exceptionally generous playgroup who provides me with rares to borrow and throws C/UC my way for tournaments I can manage to make and want to play in.
ReplyDeleteLike I said, you want to offer a bounty fine, but I'd rather see it go to a charity than paying someone off. So I freely admit that "waste" was an extremely poor choice of words. People are naturally allowed to do as they please with their own money, I just think that it could be put to a better use. I remember the incredibly ridiculous sums that being thrown around for those last points for the Imperial Heir by both Crane and Spider, and thankfully it was brought under control.
Ultimately, for reasons I probably won't be able to articulate clearly, bounties just feel wrong to me and I think are ultimately damaging to the game. Every time I think of it, all I hear in my mind is "Well, I'm not good enough to win X prize, so let me just buy it from someone who is". Is it wrong? Likely not, but then maybe I've just got a different notion of what the integrity of the game is than others who have more history in the game than I do.
Even as a Crane player I can say that the offer before the in the top four before a game doesn't feel right, but to say it puts the slander in the Crane paints with too broad a brush, he is only one player after all.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with bounties, it gives people who can't always travel a way to participate in events regardless of location. The fact that people care enough to set them is an endorsement of the passions the game stirs. That's a good thing.
But for those who think Winner was truly in wrong then take heart in the existence of karma, because his deck west truly wonky in what should be a favorable matchup to get swept in the finals.
Offering to share the bounty is attempted bribery. David Winner should have been thrown out of the tournament immediately, before any of his games against Will Brewer.
ReplyDelete@Jeff: I can't speak for everyone, but personally I don't think this is a bad reflection on the Crane as a whole. It's not like all the Crane boards were lit up with people defending Yoshi, which has happened with other players. I think it actually speaks to the integrity of the players on the Crane boards that it hasn't happened.
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it, there was also another $550 dollars out there from another bounty offer for an untained Crane win, in addition to the $500 David put out.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, the "official" story from David and Will, is that, the offer was a split of the entire Crane bounty. No dollar figure was expressed until Will posted what it would have been in his tournament report.
Regardless of your feelings on the matter, bounties are the exception in L5R's floor rules. So in adherence to the letter of the rules, no one broke anything by offering to split a bounty.
Does that mean it was right in the spirit of the Floor Rules? That will be up to AEG to decide.
And while I don't see any punishment for David or Will forthcoming (after all, Bryan Reese has already defended them), I do plan on seeing a change to the Floor Rules, if not an outright "ban" on cash bounties.
I'd also be curious as to why bribery is against the floor rules.
ReplyDeleteMagic: The Gathering tournaments with cash payouts often see those in the money ask for concessions in exchange for a cut of their next tier winnings.
If a player wants to bankroll their way to a magical samurai cardboard tournament win with obscene amounts of money, does that make him a bad person, or merely a misguided one?
Ben -
ReplyDeleteBribery is actually explicitly forbidden in the MTG floor rules as well (Section 5.2):
http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf
It does frequently happen outside of what Judges can see, but that does not make it legal.
Bounties I feel upset the spirit of the game, introduce an element that is not otherwise a component of regular social play, and make tournament play into a pissing-match between 'one-percenters' as opposed to a challenge over the best player with the best deck. I'd prefer to see them outlawed. Let's get back to playing cards.
ReplyDeleteHad I know that the Crane had a major bounty beforehand, I would have made sure that the bounty for Mantis was bigger. I personally would have enjoyed seeing a Mantis in the finals again this year (and as well as they have done, still no wins).
ReplyDeleteAs far as the ‘bounty/prize splits’ and ‘bribery’, I feel that if it is actually done in good faith (not in bad faith like say I know I can’t win against your deck 75% of the time, let me see if I can get you to concede by offering you this) then I am OK with it (I am a Kolat you know).
As far as the situation in story goes, I think story team should always take this information into consideration. I would find out what character David Winner and Will Brewer would have picked had they won and involved some story time for them when the new Emerald Champion finds evidence that the David Winner’s choice ‘bribed’ Will Brewer’s choice to make it into the finals. Unlike Magic, this situation can cause for epic conflicts within the story of the game thus making Legend of the 5 Rings legendary.
"Bounties I feel upset the spirit of the game, introduce an element that is not otherwise a component of regular social play, and make tournament play into a pissing-match between 'one-percenters' as opposed to a challenge over the best player with the best deck. I'd prefer to see them outlawed. Let's get back to playing cards."-Anonymous
ReplyDeleteWait, how is it that the winner of the tournament is not ultimately the best player with the best deck (barring concessions). How is thee anything wrong with people taking bounties to use decks that may be less than optimal and trying to win with them? If I take a bounty and win the tournament with X clan's deck, I still managed to WIN the tournament.
Well by definition it was bribery. He offered him something to take the fall. It happens, it also happens that players will team up and decide to concede to each other based on strength of the deck and then split prize support. Same outcome, just decided before the tourney rather than during. The main issue here is that it happened publically at an AEG sponsered event. If AEG doesn't come down on it, it sets a precedent that it is acceptable to do so. My bet however is that AEG will let this blow over and everyone will forget until the next time it happens.
ReplyDeleteAs far as banning bounties, it seems to me you are burning down the house to get rid of the termites so to speak. Also it would be impossible to enforce. The best AEG could do would be to stop supporting bounties and that would probably just piss off a majority of players and cause more problems then it solves.
Will Brewer has been given a 30 day ban for bribery.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1266462#p1266462
The curious thing is that Brewer received a ban while Winner did not.
ReplyDeleteBoth offered other players a share of their prizes in return for a concession, but only one received a slap on the wrist.
I hope that the fact Winner was offering a share of the prize he was providing wasn't the deciding factor here, because to my eyes at least, that makes Winners behaviour worse if anything.
Not really all that curious. Will offered his winnings in his playin match for the tops, as I recall, for the other guy to concede and let him into the finals. So he essentially offered known, physical product for his spot.
ReplyDeleteHe is getting punished for that infraction (which does seem a bit odd in another sense, seeing that that happens quite a bit every year. "I only need the GENCON/Worlds/Euros seed, you can have the cards" has won loads of kotei finals.)
Winner however, offered Will a part of his bounty, should he win. Since bounties are allowed, are you not allowed to do as you wish with them?
Of course it is trying to use a loophole in the rules (malicious or not, depends on whomever wants to judge. I do not see Winner as in any way a malicious guy, his heart is clearly baby-blue however). This time, stepping that line led to the line being thinned out.
All players have the chance to win the tournament, regardless of which Faction they're playing. Since this does not apply to bounties offered, we can conclude that it is inherently an inequality not based purely on skill, but purely on Faction. I've supported Spider since Lotus, and I can say that I wasn't happy with the Race for the Throne, where if by some miracle the Spider had won, the Crab were out. Not because they were lowest in Spirit or Economy or whathaveyou, but because they're Crab. That's absurd. I support bounties, but I think they should be earned, not used for leverage. As a result of Winner's dishonesty, I think bounties should be banned outright, because if someone so highly thought of can do something like this, imagine what the less respectable players would do.
ReplyDeleteBounties were never the issue, killing them would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater...wow that's a morbid idiom
ReplyDeleteProblem was, or at least it seems, was that the bounty rapidly converted itself into a bribe.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's a slippery slope from bounties to bribery. The issue is whether AEG should legislate against bounties in their tournament rules (bribery kinda goes w/o saying). We all know they may continue to happen regardless, but because it's such a small step from a bounty being offered to the spirit of the game being violated by players forfeiting, and such - I think AEG would be best served by simply stating that they don't sanction bounties and consider forfeits as violation of tournament rules.
ReplyDelete..(continued) or at least forfeits unsanctioned by the tournament official.
ReplyDeleteDave winner is the fuckin man. And dont you faggots forget it.
ReplyDeleteYes, I will try hard not to forget that he is the man offers bounties and bribes.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure the floor rules will be changed because of this.
ReplyDeleteAs soon as Crane said "I will give you X if you concede" it was a bribe.
ReplyDeleteHow serious AEG and the community wants to take it is another issue. A bribe in jest is still a bribe if you want to get all anal about it. A bribe that wasn't acted upon is still a bribe.
Look at Illinois Guvnor. He was trying to solicit bribes but failed, still got thrown in jail for it.
Hey, stay away from Illinois's Governors. Just because the last two to have left office are in jail doesn't mean we didn't support them....
ReplyDeleteOk, I voted against one of them, and the other was the better of two suboptimal choices. I can only wonder how much better IL politics would have been if Poshard had won in 1998 instead of Ryan.
Also, the real reason to stay away from Blagojevich? HIS HAIR!!!!!!
It's a clear chase of bribery. And since even money is involved not only card or story prices it's even hard bribery.
ReplyDeleteSadly in L5R this happens often. On many tournaments in the finals one gets the cards,swords and stuff and the other player gets the story price. They call it the spirit of the game and it's not magic,or it's just a game,...bla,bla..
But everybody else feels cheated.
It's bribery.