Editor's note: Please welcome multiple Kotei winner, Straw Dog, & recent M.D. recipient Evan Paul (Velo75) of Memphis, Tennessee as the newest elfiver blogger. Evan comes with quite a reputation and passion for the game. Here's to hoping he's as successful here as in the rest of his life.
Fast forwarding four years, I look back and laugh at my own ignorance. While I'm still not enormously clear about what personal honor is, the bear is a obviously metaphor. In some parts of East Asia, to say that someone is "like a bear" is to suggest that this person is stubborn and oblivious to the realities that surround him. It foreshadowed Yoshino's brash march into Unicorn territory, which would eventually result in his own death!
My other theory is that the guy who drew that card that didn't know what a Lion looks like.
While we're on the subject of champions, we got ourselves a brand new batch of 'em for the upcoming Emperor Edition. While this is only the third set I'll have had the chance to play with, I am told that even compared to the good old days (or bad old days depending on who you ask) this set of champions is superb all around. Every one of these guys is going to cause some anxiety on the other side of the board when they show up, which is a testament to the amount of time design likely had to spend balancing them. Still, the Orwellian truth is that that some of these guys are more balanced (read: less awesome) than the others, which is where this list comes in.
There are several factors that went into my selection here which include but are not limited to their cost, viability in all the clan's themes, quality of abilities/traits, and raw stats. You'll notice that some of the top personalities, including the number one, will not see a lot of play in one of the clan's themes later in the arc. I see this as being acceptable, considering their costs I would rather have a champ that makes 3/4 of my clan's decks "a lot better" when in play than one which makes 4/4 decks "a fair bit better." If you want an example of when this was so in Celestial, you need only look as far as Yoritomo Naizen, who didn't see a lot of play outside commander and thunder decks but was still almost unarguably the second best champ in the arc.
I'm sure lots of folks will disagree with my opinions on this matter. If you feel I am an idiot, please feel free to call me one, as long as you can back it up. I will welcome any and all arguments provided they don't suggest that I am accusing the lower-ranked dudes on this list of being "bad" by any stretch of the word.
Oh yeah, the first person who brings up the fact that I didn't include The Dark Naga earns a scowl and a wag of my finger. Naga is not a clan anymore, get over it snake nerds.
Now that I have alienated a small portion of the player base, let's get started.
1. Yoritomo Hiromi (Mantis)
The Pros: I foresee myself writing an essay about the most game-breaking personalities in Emperor in about two years and, much like Kuon, I foresee this guy topping that list for the entirety of the arc. Provided that you aren't getting out-navaled, you WILL get to kill somebody on the other side before the other guy gets a chance to do anything. Even then, an opponent with negation in his deck will still need to get rid of him as pretty much all battle strategies become unstoppable when he performs them. If you are running him out of a weapons deck then...man, he just gets more and more ridiculous. He is, quite simply an offensive nightmare, and one with a strong 0.73 Force/Gold (F/G) ratio to boot. I know that I won't bother defending this guy without redirection in my deck unless I'm prepared to lose your best guy before I can take an action. It's hard to offer higher praise than that.
The Cons: OH NOES HE IS NOT A MAGISTRATE-SCOUT-SHUGENJA. The fact that he does not have relevant keywords besides Samurai and Thunder is akin to getting a scuff on the undercarriage of your Porsche. The only real downside to him is that he doesn't really mesh with the Kitsune deck...but hell they'll still play him, at least at the start of the arc anyway.
The X-Factor: On the defense and worried about a sneak? Use this guy with the mantis virtue. A theme of this discussion will be meta, and no matter how common Effortless Counterattack is it cannot stop diddly-poo when Hiromi is performing it.
2. Hida Kisada (Crab)
The Pros: Let's get the obvious things out of the way. His cost of 12 with that below-box HR makes him tied with the Lion and Crane champions as the cheapest to buy at base honor, and Kisada couples affordability with two great abilities. The kill action seems at first glance to be a weaker version of Daigotsu Kanpeki's but this is not entirely correct. Kanpeki can only target personalities, so in a case when he may be out-forced or tied with a person with a weapon he has no legal targets. Kisada on the other hand can blow up anything with less force than him, giving him some extra options. Being a tactician, he can also pump himself up before using the ability to widen his target choices. Though this would usually be a fatal tempo sacrifice, it is somewhat mitigated by his second ability, the real star of the show.
Retargeting...wins...games. Though Tsukimi has limited protective options for herself, Kisada's redirect allows him to shrug off the an opponent's first action that targets him much like his daddy did. Interestingly, Kuon didn't work with a buddy there while Kisada...sort of needs one. Maybe when he's a big bear he will get his pop's trait.
The Cons: He probably could have had berserker on him without adding to his cost, but this will matter less if you surround him with some berserker pals there; if an opponent's action is strong you can always re-target to one of them then delay it with their box. Another minor blemish on him is that he won't solo most provinces without help from a tactical force bonus, but he only needs a 3 to take any in the game.
The X-Factor: Yes, he does fit into the dishonor deck. This is fact because he A) is relatively cheap and B) can re-target to courtiers to trigger nasty effects like this guy and this thing. Oh yeah, and don't forget that in this deck you can tutor for Kisada using sac of pawns.
3. Akodo Dairuko (Lion)
The Pros: The Steel Lion represents a lost opportunity in nicknaming. If she were the Real Steel Lion then this game could have latched onto a whole new market of mecha/Hugh Jackman enthusiasts. Maybe her XP version in the next base set will have her lose an arm and replace it with some metal gaijin magicks. Shawn, Dan...it's not too late, call me.
Despite not being a robot Dairuko is a very well oiled machine. Of all the champions with an above box HR, hers is the easiest to reach (only 3 away in a clan with an average personal honor of about 3) and once you get there she has an extremely impressive 0.75 F/G ratio. Her melee 8 is also going to kill sometime the majority of the time, weapon decks and crab scouts are the only things she really needs to worry about here. But you know what, I don't even want to talk about that crap, OR the fact that she's the first Lion champ since Lotus with 5 chi, OR the fact that she has both tactician and paragon on her. No, the thing that elevates her on this list to #3 is her reaction. I think that some folks look at these champions in a vacuum. When you see a guy with 9 force, a great kill action, and a bunch of great keywords it's easy to say "OMG BORKEN" and declare him the top of the pack (oooh, foreshadowing!) but L5R is about building armies. None of the other champs contribute to a victory condition in quite the same way that Dairuko does, and this is thanks to the fact that she has a printed version of Rallying Cry on her which she can use even if bowed. While this card hasn't been legal for a while, most of you will remember Military Assessment and how much it swung games in the military v. military match up. She's just plain efficient at everything, and the only reason she isn't number 1 on this list is that she isn't broken (Hiromi) and can't protect herself (Kisada).
The Cons: Like Kisada she does not solo without some tactical help, and she needs a 4FV to get above Crab Siege's 9 province strength. Additionally, while she has 5 personal honor I honestly wouldn't put her in Kitsu decks since she doesn't really synergize all that well with what that theme is supposed to do.
The X-Factor: Her ability sets up for The Perfect Moment pretty wonderfully. Opponents will have to think hard before attacking into a group of unbowed paragons on the following turn. Even better, she can use her reaction after your perfect moment and, if you have a second copy, DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN. I dunno about you but that sounds like auto-win to me. Another possibility to consider is her popping up under Shinden Shorai on turn 3...buying her in the action phase ignoring her HR having gone first on that turn is incredibly strong...and unlikely...but really really strong.
4. Doji Makoto (Crane)
The Pros: The Crane sure have it tough. For the first time in a year they will have to adjust to starting with a mere 6 honor and will no longer be able to automatically win duels in the action phase. Also, without Shikishi they will finally have to show up to fight and...wait, what's that you say?
Damn
Well anyway one thing Crane won't have to worry about is the quality of their champion. Like Dairuko this guy is just plain awesome for his cost. His HR can be met with one proclaim and then he his good to go for a 5 honor boost. Once he's out, grabbing the favor once a turn is extremely powerful. Honor and dishonor decks will have fits when they can't hold onto the thing, and against military he allows you to lay down an Accidental Confession before grabbing it back to use its battle action later. Oh yeah, he's also 6 chi with a battle duel. All three of the themes that run this guy should have good enough focus values that you shouldn't ever have to worry about losing one with him, and despite the hits that dueling has taken this arc he wasn't gonna do nothin' but bully everybody anyway. Like Dairuko, getting more for your money is Makoto's MO, and that kind of efficiency is what makes decks competitive.
The Cons: He probably doesn't belong in the scout theme, unless you aren't using a lot of scout actions since they tend to have awful focus values. Also, the scout box doesn't seem to play nice with those that don't share that keyword. If he sees play there early it will only be because there isn't enough depth in their personality base to kick him out yet. Aside from that, my main note of caution is that as a dueler one must be aware of the fact that most of the clan virtues delay the effects of duels, and most have good enough actions on them that they will show up a lot. It's gonna be important to keep that in mind, against Lion or Unicorn you probably won't have to worry but Crab and Mantis are much different stories.
The X-Factor: Rugashi Bazaar, 10 force with a kill action comin' your way punk. Also, the undeniable power of sac of pawns strikes again here in a big way.
5. Mirumoto Shikei (Dragon)
The Pros: Like the mysterious character in Sting's "Shape of My Heart," Shikei deals in cards as a meditation. Yes I am a fan of his solo albums, no I am not a woman in her early 50's, and yes...I think that the whole tantric sex thing is a little weird. What's not weird is the idea that card draw, like redirection, wins games. Anyone who played with or against pretty much any dragon deck in CE remembers that Togashi Satsu XP5 had the potential to swing the game in a big way. While Shikei can't do it in open (thankfully) he doesn't have to pay any costs whatsoever. This alone makes him useful in Dragon decks of any theme; there is little reason to think that he won't be played by all 4 early in the arc. Though his chi may actually be too low at 5 to make his battle duel reliable in non-dueling decks, you won't have to worry about this in magistrate and monk which both run very high focus values. His F/G is pretty good at 0.67 before you meet his HR, and a freakin' incredible 0.8 once you make it to 10. Finally, his combination of monk, samurai, and kensai allows you to take advantage of a lot of good tech and pump up that chi a bit.
The Cons: This us the first of three champions that are somewhat hampered by an honor requirement that cannot be met with one proclaim action from their clans' starting honor, and he stands a few spots above his peers in this regard because "Limited: Draw" a card is just that good. Other than this his main weakness is that his battle duel becomes beatable out of shugenja and (if not equipped with a chi boosting weapon) kensai decks since their focus values appear to be middling at best.
The X-Factor: Enlightenment loves this guy. Being that he draws cards and takes most provinces single-handedly, it's hard to argue that any of the other champs are even close to being as useful as he is for that victory condition.
6. Shiba Tsukimi (Phoenix)
The Pros: Oh hey, I remember this chick. It's the next version of that card that I almost never saw in Celestial Edition. Well, as you can see, she has come quite a ways since then. For one, she's got a kill action. Melee 6 is good enough on its own but let's face it, it's usually gonna be an 8. The yojimbo decks need shugenja around to function at top form and a quick scan of currently legal cards reveals there are already a couple good unique and possibly non-unique shuggies that will show up in the henshin deck. Glimpsing ahead, I think that this is actually a champion that could see more play as the pool of shugenja becomes deep enough to be more universally useful. But I may have lost focus on what is great about her, it's that reaction. While using her correctly will require some foresight on the player's part, the ability to move in AFTER an opponent's action is a great counter to dirty tricks like force pumping cavalry or naval/sneak actions. Even players who have gotten powerhouses like Hiromi out will need to carefully scope the whole board before proceeding when there is an 8F personality on the board who will have virtual free reign to jump in and gank you in the face with a melee 8. The fact that she is a duelist is extra icing, and like Shikei she has an excellent F/G ratio when you meet her HR.
The Cons: But man, take a look at that HR. I think 20 is a fair enough point where I can basically pretend that she is a 14G personality, and I don't think many would argue with me at that. After all, only one of Phoenix's themes is likely to gain much honor at all and even then it may be tough to hit 20 before the end of your own turn 4. This technically makes her more expensive than most of the champs, and while the overall package is still great it simply doesn't stand eye to eye with the others QUITE as well. Additionally, while the "move in" part of her reaction is excellent the "get out" part is not as much. Yeah, yojimbo decks tend to have a lot of redirect but it won't save her from anything that successfully bows or destroys her. Opponents will still need to take heed though; if they aren't careful she can easily get in, kill somebody, and book it before things get too hazy.
The X-Factor: This is probably the most subtle champion, and a survey of the available cards didn't reveal any obvious combos to me. Again, if I could gaze into the future I would expect to see that she will be better than she is now.
7. Daigotsu Kanpeki (Spider)
The Pros: Well to start with he easily has the best flavor in his ability. Story likely wanted to allude to characters such as Bane (a dangerous combination of brains and brawn) and Ivan Drago (a dangerous combination of Communism and performance enhancing drugs) to give us an image of an intelligent, abnormally strong, and ruthless individual with a penchant for high tax rates.
So hey...he's the only champion that can routinely kill all of the others if alone and with no attachments. I'll honestly be surprised if design prints another human personality with a force this high in the entire arc, so Kanpeki will rarely have to look hard for someone to snap. If you're a kensai player then all you need is one weapon to realistically target pretty much everything in the game. Speaking of keywords...monk/kensai/samurai/paragon is probably the second best combination among any of the champions. At the moment, monk tech is somewhat weak but paragons and to a lesser extent kensai start with some great strategies that just get better thanks to his second ability. Remember when Katahide killed two guys in a row and you cried for a while? Yeah...it's back with this dude. Finally, 9 force will take all non-siege provinces without any help, which is a big deal in this Brave New World. Looking at Kanpeki from a raw power standpoint, it's hard to argue that he doesn't compare well with even Hiromi...but there is of course a cost to pay for this kind of strength.
The Cons: And that cost is 13 freakin' gold. This is easily the most damning thing you can say about this guy...and it actually is pretty damning. He has an amazing stat-line and ability set but there is something that he does not share with the top 2 champions on this list: he does not have any printed insurance that you will get your money's worth with him. Let's consider a scenario where you have an army consisting of Kanpeki and 2 other guys attacking into an equally sized army with a sneak attack in hand. Though the obvious play will be to play something like "sneak, cast aside their best guy then snap their second best," you are risking getting in the way of two commonly used meta cards (Entrenched Position and Effortless Counterattack). This would be a good example of L5R's own law of diminishing returns. As personalities and attachments in this game become more and more expensive we need to see more and more output from them. Hiromi and Kisada are cheaper and yet have printed text that cushions this law, whereas Kanpeki is extremely risky.
Don't believe me? His dad had arguably the best single ability in the entire Celestial arc. How often do you remember seeing THAT guy?
The X-Factor: From what I can tell the most potent cards to use with his reaction that are available so far are Cast Aside the Weak, A Paragon's Strength, Never Beyond My Reach, Bow Before My Will, and Strength of the Spider.
8. Moto Naleesh (Unicorn)
The Pros: Remember when I said Kanpeki had the second best keyword combo of any of the champions? Yo. She's got the combination of tactician/cavalry, enabling her to take any province in the game if she has a 4FV. Then there's paragon, which DT elevated to god-like levels with the printing of just two strategies in a direct to player set. You know, these two. The fact that she straightens on each turn enables her to share some of the strengths that Dairuko has, namely the fact that you can attack on your turn and still be ready to defend on your opponents. Of course, it also sets up what may be Unicorn Paragon's greatest asset, The Perfect Moment. All this is enhanced by the fact that the new Shinjo's Guidance can tutor your deck for her. Essentially, this gives you 2 champion slots, a feature that would be vomit-inducingly powerful if she weren't so...
The Cons:
Pricey. I mean, damn girl, I know the stronghold makes 5 but 13 with an above-box HR? Considering the fact that only one theme (Paragons) is likely to get to her requirement of 10 before mid-late game this is very significant. This essentially makes her as expensive as Kanpeki. Woof.
Let's talk about that battle action. It's unrestricted unit bow where all of the other champs have actions that have some sort of restriction, so that is a plus. However, you can't get around the fact that she can't kill anyone with attachments. Before I get flamed, I realize that Tsukimi and Dairuko have abilities that are greatly hampered by even one follower; but the cards previewed this far indicate that weapons, armor, and spells will be far more popular. In other words, a melee 8 will still still kill a 4F guy with a cursed relic on him whereas this will "merely" bow the guy and destroy the relic. Almost as good for sure, but not quite. By the way, what's the deal with the cavalry restriction? She can't kill most of the naked guys from an entire clan and a unit with a cavalry follower (which 1/9 of themes run by the way) gets to keep it. You'll never catch me saying the ability is BAD, but for 13 gold paid it's not unfair to ask for a bit more.
For those who are curious about the opinion of a dedicated and accomplished Unicorn player you should check out this write-up my teammate John "Ogre" Seals did for unicornclan.com. He raises similar concerns, and reminds us that the fact that doesn't stack up well against the other champs does not make her bad...just less ridiculous.
The X-Factor: Her every-turn-straighten not only enables Perfect Moment but also Guided by Honor. This can set up some mean traps for an unwary opponent, especially if you have an Iron Will + Effortless Counterattack in hand to deal with whatever followup may occur.
9. Bayushi Nitoshi (Scorpion)
The Pros: If there's one thing I have noticed about Shawn is that he loves folks with daddy issues. This guy takes the cake though...I mean, if your pop was this guy I could understand if there was an appreciable TLC deficit in your childhood. His very first story established that he is a major dick, and we already know this stuff makes for good television. I am am legitimately looking forward to the nasty things this dude will do in future fictions.
This guy is a pretty complete package. He's got samurai, courtier, and, suppliesingly, ninja. He's got 8F for an appropriately priced 11G with a dash HR. All of this in addition to the fact that he has inherited Paneki's ability to 'splode dishonorable guys in battle outright, though this time he has the added benefit of being able to kill anything if it doesn't have attachments. Still, all this is somewhat old hat for Scorpion champs in the last couple arcs...the new wrinkle is his Limited action. An effect that causes honor loss AND dishonor is something that dishonor players will respect in EE more than in the previous arc, since appearances indicate that it will be more difficult to dishonor the table in general. Not only does this obviously contribute to that win condition, it can be a pretty potent meta for honor decks if you're playing one of Scorpion's three military themes. Finally, not to repeat myself but he can be grabbed at any time with the always-lovely sac of pawns.
The Cons: We're getting close to the end of this thing so let's go full circle. Remember when I said a preferred a champ that worked really well in 3 themes to one that worked "pretty well" in all 4? This guy is a poster child of the latter. Let's go one-by-one
Courtier Dishonor: This is probably his strongest role to play. As was previously noted, the effect of his ability is amazing...but we don't live in a magical samurai world where Assigning Blame exists anymore. Unless you're killing this schmuck you're probably losing a trait or ability in killing your own guy. This becomes less of an issue late-game, but I think players will feel the burn of this ability's cost more often than they might initially have believed when first seeing this guy. As for his battle ability, you may want to save it for the last attack to assign him because he's got a pretty fat target on his face.
Magistrate: This is his second best theme, where is battle ability really shines. Assuming that magistrates have enough ways to dishonor people, an 8F guy who can kill one regardless of attachments is a great asset. Still, he is not a magistrate. Additionally, while his limited can help you if you're switching, it's tough to stomach killing your own guys in a military match.
Ninja: Well, he IS a ninja. More specifically, he is a big ninja who can kill a card without attachments and has some printed honor meta. That's about the size of him in this deck...is that gonna make him worth 11G when there may be better uniques around in the future? Probably not. For the same cost I'd rather buy these two.
Paragon Yojimbo: He's a 5 chi courtier, and if he is in play there's a good chance he's your only courtier since you paid so much for the guy. These parajimbos tend to suck if the dudes that they're supposed to be protecting aren't on the board, so if you're sending Nitoshi into battle and he happens to get nixed you are double-boned. Like in Ninja you aren't likely to see a lot of dishonored guys on the other side of the battlefield so his ability is somewhat hampered and this theme's stronghold is already such strong honor meta that his ability may be superfluous too often.
To tie this all together, he is useful in all 4 but I would argue that the costs will often outweigh the benefits. As much as some players may not like to admit it, 11 gold and some of your own people may not be as huge a swing as the initial reaction to his being previewed may have indicated. Let me again repeat myself for my own sanity and yours: Nitoshi is a GOOD personality. The other champions have, however, set a very high bar for him to stand up to and to be perfectly honest he looks to be the worst of the 9 in a grand comparison.
Please address all flames to Shawn Carman and Bryan Reese.
The X-Factor: In the words of the Notorious, I got big plans...BIG plans...within plans.
[menacing laughter]
I hope you all enjoyed this article. We've got a lot of great authors on this site and I'm happy to be included among them. If you have any feedback please feel free to post it here or e-mail me at evanptn@gmail.com. Stay tuned next time for "Performance Enhancers: Lion Paragons" where I'll outline a sample decklist and specific strategies for this deck type. I am starting with this because I am familiar with it, but be assured that I will cover all of the clans eventually.
Thanks for reading, and keep on truckin'
Thank you for bashing embassy one last time
ReplyDeleteComments?
ReplyDeleteYou want comments?
I got comments!
Rating the champions. Cool article bro.
Liked the write up, and you had important armchair discussion on a lot of the traits and abilities that will key into deckplay.
However, I think your critical analysis of the champions is a bit skewed and perhaps naive as to how effective certain abilities will be.
For example, Makoto and Shikei both have battle duels. But take note: They are Iaijutsu Battle duels. This doesn't seem like a big deal, but keep in mind that some of the clans will be playing their 'clan action'. And all but Crane and Dragon's will effectively delay that duel effect until after the battle. That means you could lose your army, or potentially a province because that one guy that you intended to kill won't die until after the battle occurs. And that's painful. As you stated before, why would you Tactician bonus Kisada only to lose tempo with your kill action? Same here, except that you are banking on the battle duel to kill someone, when it won't if your opponent happens to have their duel meta. Mantis, for example, WILL be playing their clan action (at least at the start of the arc).
Let's assume that your opponent always has the dueling meta in hand. With that said, Makoto only grabs the favor and has some nice stats. Shikei, otoh, still draws a card. And for the expensive price, he's still worth it. (Note: Peddler costs 5 gold a turn for a card.. but can't be killed).
I do agree that Naleesh and Kanpeki will be on the bottom of the list simply because of gold cost.
I highly disagree that Nitoshi will be last.
Sure he doesn't fit into all the themes. So what? If you are playing against Scorpion, they are winning with dishonor or military. In military, I agree he won't do much unless you are playing a dishonor based action fate deck, and that's where he's lackluster.
However, I'm determined to say that Nitoshi will be the most busted, most hated champion of EE (at least early arc). Why?
Dishonor.
You can already see the seeds of strength in the dishonor build. In CE, Kazunori ruled the universe. But there wasn't really a reliable way of retrieving him. In EE, your opponent is going to pay for refusing to allow you to grab your best personality: It's called killing their dishonored (because DUH, you want them to kill their dishonored peep, rite) personality and making them lose more honor.. OR I grab Nitoshi.
In addition remember that Feign Death is a valid card. Nitoshi kills a guy, it costs you nothing with Feign Death, then just for sh*ts and giggles you do it again on your opponent's turn (why oh why did they reprint Plans within Plans).
If you don't believe that Nitoshi will make people cry and want their non-bleeding anus back, then you are mistaken, and perhaps I might even need to prove it to people..
Sure, he doesn't work with the other themes.
Okay, Nitoshi fails.. but isn't this article about overall balance of the Champions?
No kidding. Crane are good for the back half of an arc dominated by Lion and Spider, but all you hear is anti powder blue sentiment.
ReplyDeleteDisagree with Kanpeki's ranking, because he's just so expensive. As much as he wins games if he goes off, he won't go off that often. I'd rank Nitoshi higher than him.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Nitoshi has the best trait in the game. :)
To posters #1 and #3: this is all in good fun, I am against unfairness in any form and if this article gave me the opportunity to take some shots at breeder or pre-errata central castle BELIEVE ME I would have
ReplyDeleteposter #2: I did mention in the Makoto section about the clan virtues, but since two of them won't hurt your duels (dragon, crane) two are bad actions (Lion, Unicorn) and one wont see play half the time (Scorpion) you're going to be playing against decks that are running the virtues that hurt you less than half the time, and this will go down as the arc continues.
As far as nitoshi goes, his usefulness in dishonor is out-shone by a personality barely more than half his cost in Shosuro Kameyoi. If you're sac of pawnsing for him, it's the full 13 gold and we are back to naleesh/kapneki territory. I don't see his limited action as being worth that amount of cash, and even if you feign death it is costing you a fate card and an unbowed defender so it does not fully negate it
B'rnn: I see cost being an issue for all three at the bottom, but I believe kanpeki has the most potential to win games if he comes out midgame when there's more cash to go around
ReplyDeleteKanpeki is too low... because his cost is not truly ever 15. Spider will never buy him for honor, so this alone sets him at 13... and will almost always go second, giving them Bamboo, so a 2 gold bump versus almost every other match up. So in a mirror, or against FT, he is effectively a 13, at other times you might want to consider him closer to 11.
ReplyDeleteI edited the article to portray that I never thought that people would really pay 15, he is obviously only 13. If you want to break it down that way, kisada is 10 and makoto/dairoku are 8 when at reqs but I prefer to think in terms of base gold cost.
ReplyDeleteI guess what I'm trying to say is that a real cost of 13 gold is still REALLY expensive (again, look at the most recent daigotsu). Also I don't agree that having bamboo out allows you to consider people to be cheaper, you're getting that holding because of the disadvantage at going second so it is not free gold.
U ARE A IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!
ReplyDeleteY U PUT CHAMPS ON BOTTOM!!? Y U THINK THEY BAD?!!?
I DONT CARE IF KANEPKI IS 15 GOLD I GO 2ND AN GET BAMBOO HARVERSTER WHICH IS LIKE HIM ONLY COSTING 11!!! HES DIFFRENT THAN DAIGOTSU CUZ DAIGOTSU WUZ BAD!!!! FACE THE FACTS BRO U DONT KNOW NETHING!!!!! STICK TO LION HAHAHAHAHA NUB!!! L2PLAY BRO!! COME TO MY HOUSE AND ILL SHOW YOU HOW GOOD KANEPKI IS!!! I LIFE IN CLEVELAND, 648 EMBASSY WAY. IF MY DAD ANSWERS TO DOOR ASK FOR DARKVAMPIRE.
Kidding aside, I pretty much agree with every point you made. I rank Kanpeki below Nitoshi, but otherwise my list mirrors yours.
ReplyDeleteNobody in my playgroup thinks much of Makoto, but the cost is good, and his ability is stellar. And to all the people saying that the duel meta is going to hurt him so much?
Guys, the duel meta on the clan virtues costs the card that it's printed on. This prevents the user from using the other (often very powerful) action on the clan virtue. Also, compared to regular negation (which dueling ran into ALL ARC LONG in CE) this only delays the action.
I don't care if your 10gold unique personality is going to live until dynasty, he will die when dynasty comes. And then you'll be short a card and a dude, where regular negation would have prevented the death alltogether. In the meantime, I lost very little tempo (because my champ is so cheap) while having gained 5 honor from him and probably abusing the favor once or twice before he bit the bullet.
Are the clan virtues good? Yes. But do they render Makoto (and Shikei) worthless? Definitely not. And for times when you don't have the counter, a printed unit kill is PRETTY STRONG.
I don't think I've heard any Crane players complain about Makoto. He's very usable and, unlike his predecessor, very affordable. He's not at top of the heap, but where he falls in the middle is hardly worth quibbling over.
ReplyDeleteI love the article, and when I read it I agreed. However, for some reason I have this idea that the card draw offered by Shikei makes him above and beyond all other champions. To me card draw is such an ephemeral bonus, that it is difficult to rate. You talk about Sacrifice of Pawns in most of the decks, but you see I see Sacrifice of Pawns in the courtier/magistrate deck in Dragon as being much more destructive then Crab, Crane, and Dragon because as soon as he shows up he gets to work.
ReplyDeleteStill a fantastic article, thanks for writing it. I've learned a lot.
- Hatashai - DSB
Good write up.
ReplyDeleteJust to respond to your response..
ReplyDeleteWho will play their Clan action that affects dueling?
Crab
Mantis
Phoenix
Okay, now, let's say you are playing Crane. Are you telling me that at a tournament you would be okay with the effectiveness of Makoto when 3 of 9 clans most likely will blank his battle action or your Steel on Steels??? (and we don't yet know the actual percentage of decks that would be from those clans.. but I'd assume a lot of Mantis thanks to your proving the point of their bustedness)
Based on percentage of use of each clan, what most people will be running and how effective these guys are (Makoto and Shikei) I'm betting you're wrong. Makoto and Shikei's dueling action will suck donkey nuts. Does that mean they won't be played or are of no worth? Of course not. Crane's peeps are typically disposable, and Dragon gets to draw free cards and maybe take some provinces. My point is, their overall worth is based on that ability as well as everything else, and I don't think that one battle duel is worth as much as you credit it for. Don't get me wrong, I'd still be playing Makoto or Shikei at EE start, I just don't think they should be 4-5 but maybe 5-6 or 6-7.
Next off, Nitoshi:
Nitoshi is amazing. And regardless of his cost he will win games. Keep in mind that as cool as those other personalities may be (especially the Loyal ones), they do not guarantee any honor loss. For example, let's say you're playing against Unicorn BMs. They see the matchup and think: well screw this, I'm only going to bring out my Utaku Ji-Yuns.. how annoying right? Guess what the dishonor play thinks: GET OUT FREAKING NITOSHI. With any other scenario or personality, you are screwed. I'm not saying this is a consistent situation, I'm saying that Nitoshi will win games because he doesn't care about the opponent's dishonored status. In addition, with all the dishonoring going around, he actually has the ability to look deadly as a defender against your opponent.
I understand.. cheaper, powerful people will exceed Nitoshi's usefulness, and I'm sure this will be true once cheaper powerful peeps are prevalent. However, the question was more towards: when the clan champion hits the table, how scary will it be? And the answer with Nitoshi is stronger than you think. I'd place Nitoshi more around 5. As expensive as he is, I still want to see him out of Scorpion dishonor. With every other personality, your opponent can sepp after they are dishonored and take no ill effects. And that's not the case with Nitoshi. Not at all.
first of all thank you all for the kind words
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Nitoshi fan: If scorpion is successful early then I would encourage you to comment on one of my future articles to put some egg on my face, but despite how good unrestricted honor loss of 3 + a dishonor is 11 gold and your own dude is undeniably a hefty cost. Shosuro Jimen was 4g cheaper and had some built in runaway along with a limited that caused honor loss or dishonoring regardless of honorable status. He was a better deal for dishonor than this guy, and that was before dishonor was nerfed to being a non-instant victory condition.
The problem with that statement is that Scorpion will be dwarfed by the amazing Mantis Clan. :/
ReplyDeleteLow PH will be the bane of dishonor.. or so I hear.
@the Anonymous guy talking about how bad Makoto's duel is.
ReplyDeleteI do not mean this in a personal or insulting way... but how successful is your playgroup? Because the situations you are talking about are out of proportion with how true competitive L5R is played.
Those 3 clans, *IF* they are playing their clan virtue and *IF* they have one in their hand and *IF* it's a better play to just delay the death instead of using said action, get to delay the loss of the duel. It doesn't "blank" the duel. The duel still works, the personality still dies. They just die after the battle. So, that means, it is only really useful on the final province.
If Makoto had higher stats and a higher gold cost, I'd agree with you. The tempo loss of dueling the huge crab tactician and having the duel not kill him until dynasty would suck if you then lost Makoto and the province. But at 10g, Makoto is very VERY accessable, and not that big of a loss. So you got 5 honor for bringing him into play, you dueled someone, you made your opponent WASTE a card just to delay the effect, and then your opponent has to waste another card or a printed action to get rid of Makoto. All logic points towards this working towards the Crane players advantage. He has lost less cards, less actions, and less opportunity cost (since the attacker still loses his dude, even if he wins the battle). This ONLY matters if it is the final province. But Makoto being so cheap means that he'll get in there and fight at earlier provinces in all three of the control decks. A printed UNIT kill (through attachments bud) that is a duel on a SIX chi personality is almost a sure thing. Makoto will devour Kensai. He gobbles up commanders. He makes tacticians weep. And if they blow a card to delay the death, oh well. Makoto did his job. He cost the opponent cards and gained you honor.
Compare that with Kanpeki, whose cost is VERY VERY prohibitive, not realistically being played until turn 3 or 4 at the earliest, and only having reliable protection in the kensai deck. If your sneak attack gets countered, he dies immediately to many MANY actions. And 13g is a hefty price to pay in tempo just for a guy with a giant bullseye on his forhead.
At least Nitoshi has Irezu and Yojimbo's to jump in front of him.
My playgroup has 4 players.
ReplyDeleteWe have a Ronin Military Shugenja player, a Crane scout player, a Crab honor player and a Mantis honor player.
Okay, so I'm kidding.
But that's not the point. Validity of my statements has nothing to do with history. This is EE, this is a new set. New cards, new playstyles.
If I build a deck out of dueling what cards are at my disposal?
Duel of Haiku (won't kill and isn't Iaijutsu)
Steel on Steel
Sanctioned Duel
Awed Witness (doesn't kill)
So I build my deck around these 4 actions, vowing to not go below 3 FV and dynasty wise throwing in enough duelists for it to matter.
Chances are I'm playing Dragon or Crane. Chances are I'm trying for an honor victory.
True?
Now, let's say my opponent attacks and has enough people to actually take a province. The Crane/Dragon player defends.
They play an action.. to kill one of the opposing personalities with a duel. The great thing about EE is I don't have to have the duel negation in hand, and I could essentially focus out from the top of my deck, with little disregard since there is no Hamstrung, and only Discovering a Conspiracy gains 2 honor. Or.. perhaps I just strike and play Feign Death. Either way, I win since you've assumed that you have tempo and board control and I've just established that you don't.
And that's exactly the problem with Shikei and Makoto. It's not that they are terrible personalities, it's that you are lulled into a sense of false security when assuming that dueling is fool proof.
At least with a Melee 8, I know that he has to redirect or feign death to avoid his fate. With Dueling there are additional cards on top of death negation/redirect/delay that specifically target the duel that I now also have to worry about.
That being the case, this makes Makoto and Shikei not as 'competitively' good.
Oh, and by the way, taking that one card out of my opponent's hand to delay the duel's effects was no huge issue with the attacker, I'm sure the attacker will be glad to actually play some cards for once.
I also agree that Kanpeki is too expensive.. and I certainly don't think that Makoto and Shikei are below him, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place. In fact, I'd place Kanpeki at dead last.
Expect Singh Remnants to be eating your Melee 8's all arc long.
ReplyDeleteSays who? That f*cking crane guy?
ReplyDeleteSays who? That f*cking Anon guy?
ReplyDeleteHey bros, everybody's got opinions let's not crap on anybody
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if singh is gonna be ALL that common in a post-OAS world...that was one of the main reasons Lion paragons could run it effectively.
I honestly don't understand the constant cry that Kanpeki is too expensive. The only people I've heard say that are people who don't play Spider.
ReplyDeleteOutside of Ninja, he'll be run in the other three themes and all of those will run gold schemes that can support bringing him into play T3 easily. He will be flat out amazing in the Monksai theme, and only slightly less so in Paragons.
Yes, he is slightly vulnerable, but Paragons is going to have to run weapons/cheap followers more than likely. I love it when my opponent kills him when I'm playing Paragons in testing so far, it just means I'm going to At Any Cost him back and kill your best guy.
We'll see with time, but I honestly do not see the argument of placing him so low based primarily on his gold cost as valid.
Richard Walling, winner of the 7th place Orlando 2010 Kotei with Spider Oni, 3rd place Montgomery 2010 Kotei with Spider breeder, Winner of 2011 Tampa Kotei with Spider Breeder, and 2nd place of the Columbia 2011 Kotei with Spider Monksai (a performance which famously caused all of the Strange Assembly to openly complain about their hatred of the deck, and how they didn't see it coming) is a member of my playgroup. He's a die-hard spider player and one of the most talented players I've ever met. He never played Daigatsu, even though (and Evan mirrored these thoughts in this very article) he has possibly the most powerful ability ever printed on a personality. And he says that Kanpeki will not see much play for either, because of how prohibitive the 15g cost is.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect for you to care who he is, or respect his opinion. And I know there are guys in this very thread with more experience than him... but I do think that he is qualified to be a "person who plays spider and doesn't like Kanpeki".
The problem with Kanpeki is that he's a purely Timmy card printed in a relatively Spike leaning clan. So you get all these bandwagoners and casual players who see his statline and ability and then go blind when realistically analyzing what his gold cost does to you. Which is okay. It's fine. It just makes it difficult to discuss with those players because it is emotion vs logic.
Oh and he just won the Fort Walton Winners Choice this weekend with Spider Paragons. So he has top 8'd with every CE spider theme and won with two of them.
ReplyDeleteMY LIFE FOR AN EDIT BUTTON.
That's fine, but if that is true he is literally the first person I've heard say that.
ReplyDeleteBtw, the deck that just won the Imperial Explorer event was also Spider Paragons and it ran Daigotsu Exp3. The Spider Paragon deck that finished in the Top 4 at the Santiago de Chile Winner's Choice also ran Daigotsu.
So while I give all the respect and acknowledgement to Mr. Walling, people do run Daigotsu in decks that place quite well at tournaments even at the end of CE, and I really have little doubt that in EE the same will happen for Kanpeki.
As a dedicated Unicorn player, I think you're overvaluing Naleesh. She's overcosted. Once we get a couple sets in and other big uniques get printed, Naleesh will start falling out of decks.
ReplyDeleteLet's be honest, Shinjo Min-Hee (Khan), Moto Taigo (Shogun), and whomever the Ivory Champion ends up being will all, most likely, be at or near Champion power level uniques.
I'm overvaluing her ranking her 8 out of 9?
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for some cards to come out that key off of sociopath. That will make Nitoshi. Srrsly though there are enough cheap bods to feed him (Neiru Shibata maybe even Otomo Demiyah)He does not deserve to be at the bottom of the list. Even in a magistrate deck if they choose to target him first you will still have all of your magistrates alive at the battle.
ReplyDeleteI am disappointed no one has groaned about my tsukimi puns yet
ReplyDeleteSorry, having worked with a many a doctor (both MD and PhD), I've gotten use to ignoring really bad jokes and to keep smiling :-)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kanpekis rating, as much as it hurts me to say it as a Spider player. The comparisons to daigotsu are valid, he was the single most powerful personality in CE, and rightly so, but he just wasn't used in anything outside of late arc superfriend deck using unique redirection.
ReplyDeleteKanpeki just costs too much. I must say though, his stock rises dramatically in Monksai, which is the one deck I think he will be included in, at least for a while. Being able to drop a decent attachment on him straight away will both help protect the investment, AND make his kill effect target actually everything, rather then pretty much everything. Also, Hundred Fold Cut.
Great first article, Evan, and welcome aboard.
ReplyDeleteYes, 8 out of 9 in overranking her. She's tied for the lowest force in a clan with 4 military themes, her above honor requirement means that for 3 of those themes she'll almost always be above your honor (making her effectively the tied for the most expensive champion), her ability destroys attachments mostly and is really weak in the mirror match (as opposed to most champions having some sort of kill action).
ReplyDeleteShe's really only good in Paragons, and the rest of the theme... well, she'll get played early arc because there's nothing better, but when the rest of the big uniques that are story prizes start getting printed, she'll be cut quickly.
Naleesh = the worst champion.
She fits in tacticians as well eh? She is expensive and has a middling ability for a champ but I don't think she is quite the worst
ReplyDeleteThe tactician box appears to play better as a Tactician/Paragons hybrid or a tactician backed swarm deck. The tactician box itself is better with weenies and boxables as the person who draws the card can't assign.
ReplyDeleteByung, Junpei, Sanenari, along with Tairu and maybe Ki-Chang (who is also overcosted, imo) are the only tacticians in the Tac/Paragon deck, and lose Ki-Chang and add a set of Taha (SOOOO BAD) for the tactician base in the swarm deck.
The problem with Kanpeki isn't really his gold cost, its a bit more subtle than that. Its the fact that he is so expensive in a deck that is guaranteed to go second.
ReplyDeleteWhen your guaranteed to go second, buying only Kanpeki turn 2 is a recipe for disaster.
Going to battle with only 1 personality when you're outnumbered and have no protection is too risky a play. Add the uncertainty of your opponent having a Effortless Counterattack(which should be in most military decks early EE) and he drops a bit more in value.
Don't get me wrong, he is a excellent personality in the mid to late game or out of sohei where he can get some protection.
My point is that the best champions are the ones who can create game winning tempo when bought early or have the ability to protect themselves(remember Kuon?).
With that in mind i think the best champions are easily the Mantis, Crab, Lion and Scorpion champs, in that order.
Can I really take seriously a list of champions that doesn't include the MVP of Super Bowl XXXV?
ReplyDeleteIs buying Nitoshi on turn 2 game swinging? I don't think so, not even in a Ninja deck
ReplyDeleteNot really going to comment on the validity of people's impressions, just going to give my own limited platest experience. Kisada is ranked a little to high in my opinion. a turn 2 kisada is just as bad a buy as a turn 2 kanpeki as you will generally have no one to redirect too. Also depending on the deck type he becomes less useful. In my crab scout deck I would always rather buy 2-3 scouts rather than kisada and to be honest if I had anyone better to run he would be out of my deck entirely. But thats just my experience out of one deck type.
ReplyDeleteI'm disappointed that no one has earned your scowl and finger-wagging yet. What's with the human-only bias, huh? The Dark Naga can use all the (currently, zero) cards that require a Champion in play just as well as these 9 chumps! Snake nerds, represent!
ReplyDelete...although since no two non-Unique naga share a theme keyword (other than nonhuman), the TFT gold scheme is a disfunctional shambles, and TDN is overpriced in a way that makes Kampeki point and laugh, I suppose there IS a reason to ignore the big snake...
In all seriousness, speaking of Kanpeki, I think he's overrated even at 7/9. He's amazingly pricey compared to the rest of the field. He's got beefy stats, but it's been a long time since the statline was what won battles in L5R. His ability suite is, well, sweet, but for the investment, some form of protective ability would have been nice. Compare that to Nitoshi, who still sports an impressive statline and lack of a survival feature, but at a more affordable cost and with a primary use that keeps him off the markedly lethal EE front lines. And Effortless Counterattack doesn't wreck Nitoshi's face.
Anon regarding Kisada: Turn 2 Kisada is often not wise, but then again turn 2 is not the only utility of the champs, the majority of these (aside from hiromi and maybe naleesh) are most useful t3 and after. You know what is insane...buying Kisada ON turn 3 with duty of the crab...in testing this is often game destroying in fact.
ReplyDeleteQalyar: (scowls, wags finger)...also, a Kanpeki who is bought on a good gold draw can be fearsome, I would argue that Nitoshi is much more rarely fearsome because of his inferior abilities in a battle. I still am not buying that if you're only buying him for the limited that he is really worth it.
I think Nitsohi's actually most dangerous out of something like LoDD where both abilities come into play. That Battle action is printed Relentless Conviction, with the extra option of popping any naked personality or attachment. That's pretty good. After all, Relentless Conviction sees play in every deck with a dishonor mechanic and is good enough that it's unique.
ReplyDeleteI see both of them with a fairly reliable unit kill action, great keywords, and a useful second effect, but Nitoshi trades 1F for 2GC. I also think the broader focus on dishonor for this arc positions a strong dishonor-support personality rather better than a pure military personality.
Meanwhile, T3 Duty of the Crab Kisada is freaking annoying.
(new poster here) Something that hasn't been mentioned here yet: Nitoshi can be brought in on the extreme cheap via "The Empress' Address". Granted, this will probably be for Courtier Dishonor decks, but those are the decks where he plays to the most advantage anyhow. And Scorpion has a billion cheap Courtiers to choose from. Turn 1: Bring in Hurunayi or Shibata for 2g, discard Nitoshi. Turn 2: Play The Empress' address and sac the Courtier to bring in Nitoshi and gain 2 honor... True, that's a 'perfect' combo, but it does demonstrate the value of this strategy.
ReplyDelete(addendum to last post) Read it again and I recognize "The Empress' Address" requires the courtier to die in the defending army. So my example above isn't entirely accurate. Still, the approach does provide some nice insurance vs. potential attackers. People may have to start paying attention when Nitoshi ends up in the discard pile... and as they say 'out of sight, out of mind.' That's something that's easy for your opponents to forget.
ReplyDelete(and again...) Here I go again not reading cards. Ok, the Courtier doesn't have to be sacc'd - just targetted after you lose a personality. But the idea's there. I swear :)
ReplyDelete(and lastly...) posted those late last night - Empress Address doesn't work for uniques. No fair, lol. Never mind - pls return to regularly scheduled programs... ignore all this - I was half awake :P
ReplyDelete